She's got her own issues and own problems. in accordance to how Khal Drogo tried to put Dany at ease to the best of his abilities, without demeaning .. What the fuck is justice in the context of the Dany/Drogo relationship?. Drogo, a powerful Dothraki khal and feared warrior meets Daenerys, the future oath of fealty to Viserys as King and offers him his support and advice, which is accepted. Robert's spies have learned of Daenerys's marriage to Drogo, whose. Motley Fool issues rare "double down" buy alert. transition into Dothraki society and did not allow his blood riders to rape her even though that is an expected part of a khal's marriage. Did Daenerys Targaryen's over-love kill Khal Drogo?.
If I tell you to give me your money, and you refuse, and then I hold a gun to your head, and then you give me your money, did convince you to give me your money? You did it out of fear and intimidation and I would still be guilty of robbery. Viserys comments are not simply that he would not mind seeing his sister engage in an orgy - which is a passive statement - but that he would actively work to bring that about if it would get him what he wanted. The takeaway here is that his sister has no free will that he recognizes and defiance will result in being physically abused.
At the end of the day we have explicit, irrefutable statement, agreed upon by my opponent that Daenerys objected to the marriage and nothing to suggest she changed her mind. She was bullied into silence. It is clear from dialogue that Daenerys is, essentially, a captive of her brother. Beyond the subordinate role of women in Westerosi society, Viserys clearly is domineering and controlling of his sister.
In his mind he is already king and she is a subject that owes him complete obedience. The idea that the mere existence of other cities means Daenerys was free to go is absurd.
My opponent equates the situation with a contractual obligation that Daenrys must now oblige. He seems to have forgotten that Daenerys was threatened into this "contract" to begin with and contracts made under such circumstances are null and void.
Daenerys objected to the arrangement and went through with it under duress as a result of the threats of her brother. My opponent acknowledges that Viserys threatened Daenerys. He futher asserts that Daenerys agreed to the marraige. Provide any scene in the show that demonstrates Daenerys' agreement to this marraige. All I see is her being threatened and intimidated into passively going along with what she has been forced into.
Furthermore, the mere existence of the marriage ceremony is proof of nothing, since you admit the forced marriage of Sansa to Tyrion does not permit him to have sex with her. Non-consent expressed, no consent ever expressed. In this situation, the clear and unequivical statement of non-consent trumps any perceived and unstated consent, especially since it relies solely on your assertion that it is obvious.
You raised this point to demonstrate that the sexual act caused a divide between them, further reinforcing it as a non-consentual sex act. I do the same here. Provide a single scene where Daenrys agreed to anything. The ends do not justify the means. For Viserys to threaten Dany at this point has nothing to do with whether or not she was coerced into the marriage to begin with - the marriage itself was a threatening affair, and Vis was simply adding emphasis to this point to ensure that Dany did not mess up.
CON's scene 3 point has been fully rebutted. In that scene, there was no coercion. Given that Dany was not a slave, all of this is easily enough to substantiate that Dany was not raped on her wedding night, because Dany agreed to the marriage, and all marriages were expected to be consummated. Rebuttal Was Dany a slave? This is now the central question of the debate. I will proffer an analogy: Imagine a game of chess, with Vis and Dany as players. We all know that there are certain positions that would compel a player to move as their opponent wanted if that player wanted to win, but the player still has free will to move his or her own pieces as they see fit.
The question that CON poses then is not whether or not Vis is a better player than Dany, but rather whether or not Vis is moving Dany's pieces against her will. In scene 2, we evidently see Dany voicing her own arguments against the marriage, essentially questioning how it was relevant to them going back to King's Landing. Vis then offers his own arguments, that this was exactly how they were going home Dany had nothing to say to this. There was no coercion from Vis in this scene.
This is akin to Dany moving a piece, and then Vis moving his own piece, and then Dany forfeiting the game, acknowledging checkmate. Vis then rubs it in her face afterward with the snide comment about the orgy. Again, there was no coercion from Vis in this scene Vis is simply a better player at the game at this point - he does not move Dany's pieces.
Dany is simply a terrible player at this point, although she learns very quickly after getting married. It proves that Dany consented to the marriage, and was not forced into it. This scene illustrates what marriage meant to Dany: In the scene she saves female captives from becoming slaves.Daenerys and Drogo love
When confronted about the apparent Dothraki "right to rape", Dany rebuts that if they want sex, they should do it properly, via marriage. This strongly implies that 1 once a woman is given free will, 2 that woman expresses that free will via consent to marriage.
This describes Dany's views on marriage, and thus Dany's own marriage as well.
In CON's three scenes: This is the only relevant scene from CON in regards to consent to marriage. This is a threat, but not relevant as to whether or not she was coerced into the marriage. Yes, Vis is a prick that abuses Dany on a whim.
He does not threaten her all the time, and she still speaks her mind when she wants to.
This contrasts heavily with Sansa, who whenever she was around a Lannister, would do and say exactly what she thought the Lannisters wanted her to do and say. Sansa was indeed a Lannister slave of sorts, most certainly a hostage under intense coercion who could not speak her mind.
Dany still spoke her mind, and Vis did not beat her for it contrast to Sansa, who was beaten if she ever spoke out against her captives, which she did only once and was struck by a Kingsguard for it. There is an evident difference between Dany and Drogo This makes it even more evident that Jaime raped Cercei. Another motivating factor for her to agree to the marriage may have been to prevent a marriage to Vis.
This is more evidence of consent by Dany. Conclusion CON has staked everything upon Dany being a slave robbed of free will. She clearly wasn't - a contrast to Sansa's plight puts it in perspective. She freely agreed to the marriage.
In both rounds I have argued and supported that the marriage was not agreed upon, that their agreement upon ultimate goals does not constitute agreement on specific strategies and that the mere existence of other cities does not constitute freedom to choose any as a place to live in freedom. I do not know why he says I dropped points here, except to give the impression that I have conceded to his argument. I've shown where and how she was forced and coerced into the marriage.
She simply says she does not want to be Khal Drogo's queen - she does not want to get married to him. She simply wants to go home, but does not know how to get there. Viserys argues his point, but Daenerys' lack of rebuttal does not constitute consent or agreement. The coercion is obvious. Viserys berates her by saying that it could go much worse for her if that is what it took. The implication clearly being that she should stop voicing objections and be satisfied with what she is getting.
Her response is a blank stare followed by an aversion of eyes. This is consent to you? Daenerys never agreed to anything. My opponent can't show she agreed to anything. Daenerys has the vague and abstract desire to go "home. Daenerys View on marriage: I fail to see how this is relevant to the question at hand. Daenrys is talking about consensual marriage, which does not apply in her case because she never consented. It is a window into his mind with regards to the worth of his sister.
It is a threat about how bad things could get for his sister should Viserys choose to make it worse. It is not merely the only scene from me, it is the only scene in the show, prior to the marriage, that addresses the consent to the marriage and Daenerys expresses non-consent.
Clarity about Daenerys and Drogo's relationship during book 1 (AGOT spoilers). : gameofthrones
It is now upon my opponent to demonstrate where and when and how this changed. There is no "after already agreeing to the marriage. My opponent agrees that this is a threat, a threat to ensure that Daenerys sleeps with Khal Drogo, something he knows she doesn't want to do, because she said so.
It is not relevant to her coercion to the marriage since they are married at that point but it is still relevant as to whether the sex act was consensual or performed under duress and is rape. It is evident in his demeanor and way of speaking to and about her. Without asking, he strips her naked and fondles her.
Without provocation he threatens her. He explicitly talks of her as merely a bargaining trip with which he has purchased an army. Daenerys spoke her mind and he threatened her with gang rape. Later he would actually strike her for speaking out against him. The threat to "wake the dragon" only makes sense if you understand what it means, which is a clear indication she has "woken" it before.
She knew what it meant. The existence of consensual sex does not negate the existence of non-consensual sex. The fact that Daenerys would later willingly sleep with Drogo does not make their first encounter consensual and not rape. That kind of logic is horridly misogynistic. This is hereby dismissed. I have staked everything about the fact that Daenerys clearly expressed non-consent to the marriage and was repeatedly threatened into marrying and having sex with Drogo.
In contrast, my opponent has staked everything on this imaginary agreement to the marriage, arguing that consensual consummation naturally follows. My opponent needs to show some scene, some piece of dialogue that demonstrates this agreement.
He can't and he won't. He is hoping that readers will interpret Daenerys stunned silence to her brother's admission will somehow be interpreted as her being convinced of his "argument. While the map is less detailed, it does not change PRO's argument. From these two points, it naturally follows that if someone agrees to a marriage out of their own volition, they also agree to have sex on their wedding night, that sex would have been consensual, and that there would be negative consequences to deviating from this, the severity of which depends upon the political ramifications of the wedding.
CON would have you believe that "[Dany] was repeatedly threatened into marrying and having sex with Drogo," which is simply not valid and assumes far too much.
Khal Drogo Did Not Rape Daenerys Targaryen
When Viserys makes a threat, it's a threat In scene 1, Vis directly threatened Dany. Again, this has to be taken into the context of the skydiving analogy They are NOT discussing whether or not they should go through with this Illyrio notes that had Drogo not been satisfied with Dany, he would have made his displeasure known.
If someone had control over a situation, they wouldn't "let" something happen This is the key scene for this debate, as they discuss the marriage, Dany voices an objection, and Vis addresses it reasonably and with confidence.
Yes, he is ridiculously snide, condescending, and objectifies Dany to an extreme degree Any insinuation of such is unsubstantiable. This is a threat Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die.
Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion.
- GOT, ASOIAF, & GRRM
- Game of Thrones' Khal Drogo warns ‘don’t f**k with my boo’ after Daenerys strips naked
He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain.
When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer.
She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night The Dothraki way of life makes both Dany's days and nights utterly unbearable to the point where she contemplates suicide.